FISA and the Bill of Rights

On July 2nd, I had to study for my US Citizenship test, wherein the ICE officer asks you 10 questions about US history and civics, and you have to get 6 (or more) right in order to pass.  These 10 questions are randomly selected from 100 published questions.  Therefore, one effective means of studying for the test is to memorize the answers to these 100 questions.

When I looked up the questions, I realized that I knew the answers to all of them~except for 2.  I did not know which Constitutional Amendments pertain to voting rights (15, 19, 24 and 26), and I did not have the Bill of Rights memorized.

And so, here are the Bill of rights (as copied from Wikipedia, the answers expected by the ICE officer are slightly different):

First Amendment - Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petition

   Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Second Amendment - Right to keep and bear arms.

   A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Third Amendment - Protection from quartering of troops.

   No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Fourth Amendment - Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.

   The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Fifth Amendment - due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.

   No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Sixth Amendment - Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counsel

   In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.

Seventh Amendment - Civil trial by jury.

   In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Eighth Amendment - Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.

   Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Ninth Amendment - Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

   The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Tenth Amendment - Powers of states and people.

   The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

The current brewHaHa over the FISA bill is over two issues:
(a) the roving wiretaps (or whatever it is that they do)
(b) the retroactive immunities being granted to the telcos who were in violation of the 4th amendment.

It is said that the roving wiretap violates the 4th Amendment.

The wikipedia version of the 4th amendment is

Fourth Amendment - Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.

   The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

And the answer expected by the ICE officer is

Fourth Amendment - The government may not search or take a person's property without a warrant.

Frankly, I do not see any problems.  

When I make a telephone call, or when I surf the internet, or when I send an email, I do so with the expectation that I am broadcasting it to the whole world (and the whole world probably includes the NSA).  It is for this reason that my company does not permit the transmission of any ITAR restricted content via email.  And when I do not want to broadcast to the whole world, I send encrypted emails, and use encrypted voice communications.

There is a big difference between having the government seize my property without my permission and without a warrant, and the government snooping on my property without my permission and without a warrant.

Seizing my property without a warrant and without my permission is not okay, and is in clear violation of the 4th amendment.  But what about snooping on me ?  The 4th amendment has some very direct language on "unreasonable search"es.  

But what constitutes an "unreasonable" search.  As per the 4th Amendment, an unreasonable search is not okay ~ by default, a reasonable search should be okay.  

So what differentiates an unreasonable search from a reasonable search.

Now, I am not a constitutional scholar (as evidenced by the fact that I did not have all this memorized), but here is my laymans take on it...

An unreasonable search is one in which the citizen has a reasonable expectation of privacy in that particular situation.  

When I go out into a public place (such as at a Dodgers game), I have no (or should have no) expectation of privacy.  Thus, the government is allowed to snoop on me.  

When I go into my bedroom, and shut the curtains, I have a reasonable expectation of privacy.  Thus, the government is not allowed to snoop on me (and dont believe that they could not do so ~ they do have techniques for "through the wall imaging").

When I use the unsecured internets to communicate anything, I should have no expectation of privacy.  

Thus, I do not believe that having the NSA snoop on me when I send an email is a violation of my constitutional rights.  I also do not believe that it is wrong of them to do so.

And so, I stand in support of Sen. Obama's stance on the compromise legislation on FISA.



Display:


Tips (2.00 / 4)

For finally memorizing the Bill of Rights,

and for noticing that the 14th amendment (voting rights for all races) preceded the 19th amendment (voting rights for all sexes)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:40:57 AM EST

recs and mojo! (none / 0)

Great diary!


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:55:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I need to amend (none / 0)

in my craze for a diary about the Bill of Rights, I missed a few points.

It seems that you are more OK with the new FISA law then I am. Is that true?

If so, I am sorry but I can not rec this diary. If I am to tired and just not understanding anything... then I just need to go to bed.  :)


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:58:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I need to amend (2.00 / 1)

Ah yes, I knew there was a catch =)

And yes, I am okay with the FISA compromise... and I am okay with you unreccing my diary and going to bed too =)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:59:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 3)

You should read Katz v. United States.  You sure as hell do have a reasonable expectation of privacy when you make a phone call or send an email.

What's so hard about getting a warrant anyways?


Polawtics. Where awareness of the internet happens.
by ASDem on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:53:31 AM EST

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

we need to rec'd this diary!


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:54:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

I would much prefer if you could summarize your thoughts on why there is a reasonable expectation of privacy...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:57:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

I think there's a subjective and objective component to the phrase "reasonable expectation of privacy."  Subjectively, do I actually expect privacy?  Objectively, is that expectation reasonable?

When I'm on the phone with my mom, I don't expect the Government to be listening in.  And I think that's a pretty objectively reasonable belief.  

Now, I suppose you don't have the same subjective expectation, but the Constitution should protect mine.

Make sense?


Polawtics. Where awareness of the internet happens.
by ASDem on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:06:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

Actually, my understanding of privacy has nothing to do with whether the govt is listening in or not.

When I talk to my Mom, I am not expecting the govt. to be listening in...for they would be bored to death.  I do expect them to be capable of listening in.  I also expect several others (those working for the N Koreans, or for the Chinese, and those working for IBM and MentorGraphics as well) to be capable of listening in.  

That is a pretty objectively reasonable believe as well.

That is why I do not have any expectations of privacy...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

It's not about your understanding that they CAN listen in, it's about the expectation that they WON'T use that power for no good reason.  And even if you don't expect privacy when you talk to your Mom or email your spouse, when someone (like me) does, it's certainly reasonable, subjectively and objectively.  So that communication is entitled to 4th Amendment protection - which just means, get a warrant if you want to listen or read.


Polawtics. Where awareness of the internet happens.
by ASDem on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:35:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

Here is what I feel you are missing.  When you contract with an ISP or telephone company you are contracting with them to provide you service with the expectation that your calls/emails will go through them and their affiliates with no one else listening/reading or a copy of the call/email or personal information being sold/bartered/referred to a 3rd party w/out your consent.  (Read the agreement you sign/check when signing up for service)

There is your expectation of privacy.

The NSA Echelon program listens for keywords, and then downloads the conversation.  The download is then reviewed by a human technician before being referred up the chain of command and a FISA warrant being pursued.  If the download is deemed to be of National interest a FISA warrant is then applied for retroactively for the download, a AUSA applies for the FISA warrant after being briefed into the program-AND deems to the judge that the warrant is necessary, also if the NSA/FBI/CIA/DIA want to continue to monitor the "download source" they must apply for an additional FISA warrant for the cause of doing so.  (Both are usually applied for at the same time)

So while the government and telecom community CAN listen into your calls/emails they are expected not to w/out first a warrant, and that warrant must show reasonable justification for doing so.  Obviously the telecom's do self monitoring-and that falls into a subset of this search/seizure protection-and if you are doing harm to them or through them they can investigate by "previewing" your email/communications.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:00:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

I think you have missed a few links.

You do not contract with your ISP to deliver your mail to the intended recipient.  You contract with them to deliver it to the next entity along the chain.  All told, there may be a dozen different entities that handle your email before it gets delivered to your Mom.  That is the point I have been trying to make... expecting the ISP to guarantee your privacy is futile ~ they are not in a position to guarantee anything.

I am not aware of the particulars of the NSA eavesdropping program, and am greatful for your description of it.  Could you provide a link for that information.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:52:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

http://www.hermetic.ch/crypto/echelon/ec helon.htm

http://home.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon. html

http://www.nsawatch.org/echelonfaq.html

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/eche lon.html

Just a few sites with some good info on the program.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 04:29:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You know what is interesting? (none / 0)

People who take "US Citizenship test" know more about our Constitution then people who were born here and lived here all their lives!

It is NOT taught in schools! Civics is dead or almost dead in school!

It should be required that you understand the founding documents and how this country is supposed to run, to graduate high school.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:53:36 AM EST

THANK YOU! (none / 0)

for posting this.


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:54:23 AM EST

Re: THANK YOU! (none / 0)

thank you... I am not used to such effusive praise, so I am not sure if you are being sarcastic =)

But thank you anyways !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:58:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

see my comment above (none / 0)


Washington Woman
theocracywatch.org
EENR Blog
by kevin22262 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:01:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

Hell. I swear if you asked all americans to name the amendments half of them wouldn't be able to tell you the first ten. They would probably be only be able to say the first two.


"Rankles and Rush Limbaugh, ruining the chaos brand since 2008."
by alyssa chaos on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:11:50 AM EST

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

People who use the phone and send messages via email have a reasonable expectation of privacy.  We're a long way from the Andy Griffith Show days when a single phone line ran through the entire town and someone could just sit on the line and hear everyone's gossip.  Likewise email - I'm in a line of work where confidential communications to clients are necessary, and I email things fairly regularly.


by rfahey22 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:13:46 AM EST

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

It is a whole lot easier to secure the communication in the Andy Griffith telephone ~ all you have to do is "secure" the operator.

In today's internet age, an unsecured email is like a public broadcast (as our security officers tell us).  That email is handled by a dozen entities before it reaches the recipient ~ and it can be compromised at each stage.

If you are sending confidential information, I would urge you to consider an encryption software (like PGP or pretty good privacy) or investing in a secure email service (for instance, one provided by VeriSign)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:50:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 2)

Yes, but that wasn't my point.  Just as people do not expect the Post Office to open their mail, so to is it "unreasonable" to expect the government to hack an email account, without justification.


by rfahey22 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:53:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

In my opinion, the right frame is the expectation of privacy.

Whether or not the govt is hacking my email does not alter my expectation of privacy ~ plenty of other people ARE hacking into my email...and so I do not have any expectation of privacy with email.

WIth USPS courier mail, the govt (the postal service) is the only one that handles my mail from the moment I drop it off till the moment it gets delivered.  Thus, I have an expectation of privacy with USPS mail.

Interestingly, you are allowed to send and receive classified mail by USPS (provided you have a classified mailbox).  You are not allowed to send and receive classified email ~ even after encryption.


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:02:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

Well, I have to give you credit for consistency.  However, I do think that the majority of people in this country expect that their emails and telephone calls are private, even if in the grand scheme of things the security that affords such privacy is flimsy.  Certainly that is my expectation.  Moreover, it would be a strange right that could be whittled away to nothing by fraudsters.  It would almost be like permitting the government to search a home at will if the owner lived in a high crime neighborhood and never put a lock on the door.


by rfahey22 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:09:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

I could pose a counter argument...

a homeless person sleeps on the parkbench with his belongings in a trash bag.  The cops search the trash bag!

Does that constitute an unreasonable search ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:14:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

Are you talking about a nearby trash can, or a bag the person carries around with him?  If the former, no, because it's a public trash recepticle.  If the latter, yes, because it's a private personal possession.  It would be an interesting court case in any event.


by rfahey22 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:32:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

What if the trash bag carried by the homeless man looks identical to bags of trash strewn next to a trash can ?

My point is that the boundary between reasonable and unreasonable is not set in stone.

The roving wiretaps (from what little I understand of it) has the NSA looking for certain keywords within conversation threads, or certain suspect individuals in the conversation thread...and that this roving wiretap sometimes snoops on your conversation with your Mom.

If it was reasonable to be looking for those keywords, then (given that I have no expectation of privacy when I type an email), I do not think it is an unreasonable search !!

But kudos to you for posting your comments in a reasonable fashion... I have been pleasantly surprised by the absence of flames !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:46:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

I think our discussion has come full circle.  Again, while you do not have an expectation of privacy regarding your own emails, I think many others would beg to differ.  Perhaps there is also an overbreadth dimension to "unreasonable" searches raised by data mining technology, as well.  


by rfahey22 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:06:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

Well here is what the courts say(paraphrasing):  First, they must determine if the bag belongs to the homeless man.  By doing so, it's a double edge sword in that, now if he says yes...they are both acknowledging that it's his personal property.

Second, a park bench while being public property if the homeless man inhabits at night, and displays and continued pattern for habitation under his circumstance is his domicile.  Same for a cardboard box.  (The main reason Police don't let homeless sleep on the Park benches or in the Park anylonger.)

Third, if after determining that the bag belongs to the homeless man, if they search it w/out permission or search for a specific item(s) not obvious to the plain search requirement, they are violating his 4th amendment right.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:11:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

Interesting...do you have the link for this ?

I would take issue with the "must determine if the bag belongs to the homeless man".  Does that mean that when the cops see a bag full of trash, that they are required to search for it's owner before they can inspect it ?


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:55:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

Sure.  United States v. Caldwell as well as United States v. Purcell for addn'l info.

What that means is the cops if they see what they deem to be trash (remember your talking about a homeless man, who in your scenario sleeps/uses a trash bag, and if it's within his reasonable area of reach must determine if it's his in order to search it.  If they just see a trash bag, in a garbage area w/ no one around, then it's safe to assume that it's trash.  Howeve, that was not your original hypothetical scenario.

If he indicates it's not his, then it's public domain.  If he indicates it is his, then they can ask for permission to search the bag, thus forgoing the need for a warrant pursuant to the 4th amendment.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 04:21:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

If your ISP is a secure ISP then there is an expectation that there are not other people "hacking" into your email when you contract with them.  If your at work, then your work is contracting with an ISP under the same agreement/expectation.

And yes, sending classified mail by USPS I could never understand.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:04:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

The USPS delivers your mail for you...no other entity is involved in the process.  Your ISP does not deliver your mail for you...it just hands it off to the next node in the network.

That is why you can send classified mail by USPS, but not by email (unless you use a network fully owned and operated by the DoD... which is the only "secure" ISP around)


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 12:57:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

This is true, but again when you contract with your ISP, you are contracting with them to provide a service in which your communications are delivered through a service in which they contract with 3rd party entities in order to deliver your communications.

You are not contracting with the 3rd parties, but your ISP is, and your contract is with them.  You can also believe that there is a security coverage clause between the ISP and 3rd party "contract" that reads that they are expected to deliver the communications w/out delay and without exposing the communications to anyone outside the of the target or designated reciepient.


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 04:25:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

you seriously think your encryption puts your communications in a secure place - from the NSA? I remember a little poem from a priest in germany --- first they came for .... and I did nothing.


by swissffun on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:01:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

It is not reasonable to compare people of being Nazi enablers when you disagree with them.

And as to your point, yes...encryption software can protect your information from the NSA.  Any software engineer can tell you that a good (128 bit, or 256 bits hopefully) encryption with a properly chosen password will take the NSA decades to crack.  

And if you dont believe that, there was a recent case of a man who had downloaded and encrypted child porn.  The govt. could not crack his encryption, and they asked the courts to force him to surrender his password (the courts refused).

I will see if I can dig up a link for that...


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:00:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

nazi enablers is that how you refer to Lutheran Pastor Martin Niemöller?? Get a clue.

And the allusion was to the blindness people always have to fascist creep -- i'm not at risk so it's not an issue -- of course until it's too late and they come for you.


by swissffun on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:09:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

No, I think you need to get a clue...specially about poems that you go around quoting.

And so, for your education, here is the poem in it's original German


Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.

and here is the English translation...


When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

And in case you still dont get that the poem is about Nazi enablers, you might want to read up on the history of Pastor Niemoller.

You see, he was an early supporter of the Nazis... and is referring to himself in the poem.

He only came to oppose Hitler in 1934....


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 02:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

thanks I know the poem and about the pastor. pinning the enabler tag is quite a stretch.

but encrypt away, and support the FISA circumvention ala Bush which is exactly what this diary was about. enabling whatever happens in the future based on that, instead of fighting it. shalom


by swissffun on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 04:27:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

So we come full circle again...

you did, indeed, compare me to a Nazi enabler (or one who remains silent in the face of Nazi onslaught against misc. groups); you knew full well you were doing so, and feigned outrage when you were called on it...

Next, you will scream holocaust when someone utters something you disagree with...

Pathetic !!!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 05:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

huh? you've got issues. I NEVER compared you to a f'ing NAZI. Take that attitude somewhere else. You're diary 'enables' in sentiment the f'ing wiretapping. How you pull out this Nazi crap is beyond me. Goodbye.


by swissffun on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:35:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

So now you have problems reading as well...

I said you compared me to a Nazi enabler, not to a Nazi... perhaps you do not understand the difference, or you are just pretending to not know the difference again!

You clearly did compare me to a Nazi enabler, and you clearly knew what you were doing, and you clearly denied it, then admitted knowing what you were doing.

Please take that filth into your own internets.  This diary is mine !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:36:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

here is the inherent fallacy of your argument (2.00 / 2)

by this argument you can say that the government has the right to tap our phone as and when they want without a warrant. In other words J. Edgar Hoover tapping the phones of MLK, JFK, peace activists etc no big deal, Nixon AG tapping the Democratic party's phones no biggie (because of which we had the FISA court, which is now being dismantled by the Democratic congress).
Your interpretation of the 4th amendment is rigid and reflective of the conservative argument for wiretapping. The bill of rights was written in the days before electronic communications. When the principle drafters write about search and seizure of papers one would presume they also meant private letters and communications. I believe that the Framers would have extended the same consideration to phone calls and other electronic communications. As Thurgood Marshall wrote for Katz vs US:

And bypassing a neutral predetermination of the scope of a search leaves individuals secure from Fourth Amendment [389 U.S. 347, 359]    violations "only in the discretion of the police." Id., at 97.

These considerations do not vanish when the search in question is transferred from the setting of a home, an office, or a hotel room to that of a telephone booth. Wherever a man may be, he is entitled to know that he will remain free from unreasonable searches and seizures. The government agents here ignored "the procedure of antecedent justification . . . that is central to the Fourth Amendment," a procedure that we hold to be a constitutional precondition of the kind of electronic surveillance involved in this case. Because the surveillance here failed to meet that condition, and because it led to the petitioner's conviction, the judgment must be reversed.

I am sorry no amount of rationalization can obfuscate the fact that the bill is unconstitutional and what Obama did was a travesty.


by tarheel74 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:19:16 AM EST

Re: here is the inherent fallacy of your argument (none / 0)

I agree that you can take my arguments, and apply it to the phonetaps of MLK etc.  I also agree that this makes my arguments look silly...because I also agree that the phonetapping of MLK was unconstitutional.

The difference lies in the expectation of privacy.  I do not expect privacy when I send an email.  I also do not expect privacy when I make a voice call today.  

I used to expect (more) privacy back in the days of copper interconnects


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:54:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Finally some constitutional analysis (none / 0)

Most of the people crying, "BUT IT'S THE CONSTITUTION!" don't even know the amendment they're referencing.


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:53:53 AM EST

Re: Finally some constitutional analysis (none / 0)

apparently you can know the words of the amendments and STILL get it wrong!!!!!


by swissffun on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 03:02:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

Who cares about FISA???? Noone.

It's something trendy bloggers talk about to make a name for themselves.


by Makey on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 05:52:24 AM EST

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

Who cares?  I care.  Millions care.  And everyone should care.

-- Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Benjamin Franklin, 17 February 1755


He that lives upon hope, will die fasting. -Ben Franklin
by TxDem08 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 09:15:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (2.00 / 1)

This diary is the essence of why politicians like Bush and Obama will continue to be able to obscure the Constitution.  If you're going to monitor emails, phone calls, snail mail, or any other form of private communication you'd better damn well have a warrant!  The diarist is also right he doesn't understand the meaning of the fourth ammendment.  Why would immunity be so important for the telecoms if there was no violation of Constitution?  The fact it is so important an issue speaks volumes.  How many other rights is the diarist willing to surrender?

 "The price of Liberty is eternal vigilence"  


by orionwest on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:53:27 AM EST

Re: FISA and the Bill of Rights (none / 0)

"To be secure in their persons, ... papers, and effects" has, and was always meant to be, interpreted so as to protect the privacy of an citizens thoughts and ideas.

When I make a phone call or surf the web, I expect privacy. That you expect less suggest that you've learned your lesson well enough to become a citizen without learning what it means to be a citizen or what makes this country such a great place

Any candidate who refuses to oppose the FISA Amendment Act of 2008 is not fit for public office.


by jrole on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:10:39 PM EST


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